Family Feud: Is the Fight for Gay Marriage a Civil Right? —Survey Says…
The Court of Public Opinion
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That seems to be the question of the day.
Commonly defined as a class of rights ensuring things such as the protection of peoples’ physical integrity; procedural fairness in law; protection from discrimination based on gender, religion, race, sexual orientation, etc; individual freedom of belief, speech, association, and the press; and political participation.
“Civil rights” are often confused with the Black Civil Rights Movement that eventually led the way for The Civil Rights Act of 1964, which outlawed racial segregation in schools, public places, and employment.
Overall, I’d agree that gay marriage is a civil right. However, there is a real misunderstanding by the white gay community as it relates to the Black community when it comes to juxtaposing these two terms.
For a community that immediately connects the words civil rights with their civil rights movement, the comparison of gay marriage as a civil right is almost always dead on arrival the moment it comes out of the mouth of a white person—gay or straight. Why? Because the Black civil rights movement was about bestowing equal rights that whites already enjoyed thanks to the color of their skin—gay or straight. To many Blacks, civil rights are grounded in Christianity – not something separate and apart from religion but synonymous with it.
So to that end, I think it’s a losing argument when coming out of the mouth of anyone who is not Black.
It’s very hard for another Black person to tell me that my people were never forced to use separate restrooms or were treated differently based on the color of their skin because I am Black. But it’s very easy for Blacks to tell whites that, and in fact they do all of the time when this argument is made.
I said it before, and I will say it again. At the same time that white gays adopted the language of the civil rights movement, they never put into practice its core principles or demonstrated an understanding the people and history behind it. This how you have a gay couple in West Hollywood use a noose as part of a political effigy on the eve of one of the most important elections for both blacks and gays in California.
It’s time to go back to drawing board in the gay rights movement and to take some other people with them, Blacks, Latinos, Asians, etc.
Last Saturday, I sat on a panel discussion on 93.5 FM The Beat’s Community Action show with my girl Niele Anderson to discuss this issue. Other guests on the program included a Black Mormon who supported Yes on 8 as well as Rev. Derrick McCoy, another Black pastor who worked to bring together Black churches in Los Angeles to vote Yes on 8. During the one hour segment we took calls from the audience on the issue of Prop. 8 and I have to say, I was very disappointed in what I was hearing. Not only were 90 percent of the calls from supporters of Prop. 8, but it was clear that in the minds of most Blacks, this is a Black and white issue. Them vs. us. And people like me, Black and lesbian don’t exist. Why? Because the white gays have done an incredible job of micromanaging the gay rights movement to the point that they continue to be the face of it. I think though, even more disturbing then that was a caller named Tina who was a Black lesbian who voted Yes on 8 because her family values and morals dictated that she do so. Talk about self-hatred and self-oppression. Take a listen above.
After the show, I decided that it was high time that Black same-gender loving people and their heterosexual counterparts come together to have a discussion about this issue in our community. So needless to say, the Los Angeles Sentinel stepped to the plate to host a discussion this Saturday, November 22.
“Are Gay Rights Civil Rights?” is the topic up for discussion this Saturday (November 22) at a town hall meeting being hosted by the Los Angeles Sentinel newspaper in light of the aftermath of the passing of Proposition 8 on Nov. 4, which banned same-sex marriages in California. Being held at Los Angeles Trade Tech College (400 West Washington Blvd.) from 8 a.m. to 11 a.m., the community will get a chance to weigh in and discuss whether the gay rights movements is the same as the 1960s Civil Rights Movement for Blacks. Also up for discussion will be whether Black America is more homophobic than other races and are Black voters to blame for the passing of Prop. 8.
“I felt it was important to host a meeting on this issue after seeing the troubling reports of blacks being accosted in the streets of Westwood during a protest,” said Sentinel executive editor Danny Bakewell Jr. “Since the election there have been several reports of blacks being called the n-word and harassed by gays upset over Prop. 8.”
Now I know there are going to be a lot of white people tempted to attend this town hall and by law of course you can’t be turned away. But think about this. If this issue of gay marriage is so important, don’t come. Let the Black community have a discussion about this among themselves without the interference of outsiders who in my opinion have only made the issue worse and only helped in the invisibility of the Black lesbian and gay brothers and sisters. I think it’s clear to the world how white gays feel about the passage of Prop. 8 and Black people. Now it’s time for your Black counterparts to try and clean up the mess you’ve made in our community and talk to our people in a way that only we can—and that means without you.
What in the hell are these people thinking?!! That is why I do not want to work with the black community even though I am a black gay man!
Thanks for posting this! Keep posting more!
Ms. Cannick continues to divide and distract the people on marriage equality by ranking oppression- ugly business. She is stuck and simple minded in her racist comments about the white gay community. She is a part of the problem and should be ignored going forward.
Is it effective for a few Black folks to make the argument to Whites that homophobia in the Black community and churches is a private matter that is off limits to criticism and negative consequences by the citizenry?
Is it fair and balanced for JC to borrow Fox type polling that pits Black Gays and White Gays against one another?
“You nigger”, one man shouted at me. “If your people want to call me a faggot, I will call you a nigger.”
Aunt Charlotte, a slave from birth, and my father’s grandmother daily responsibilities were to wash, dress, and sexually satisfy Mr. Thomas, a burly Irishman, and his frail, English wife, Julie.
Who better to perform such servile, filthy, and godless tasks than an African woman plagued with dark skin, the mark of Noah’s curse on his son Canaan’s lineage, after Canaan had incestuous sex on the Ark with his mother, Noah’s wife?
Charlotte’s skin color alone was proof she was a descendant of Ham, the son of Canaan, and therefore a deserving reciprocate of her ancestor’s wrongdoing, and worthy of all Christian distain and abuse.
Cursed by God through Noah to be a “servant of servants”, who was – apart from God’s love – without any sexual shame, moral taboos, or apprehension, even eager and enthusiastic to sexually satisfy both spouses to completion, Charlotte was best suited to perform the unholy sexual acts, the perfect personification and rationalization for sexual expediency and slavery.
This interpretation of Genesis, Book of Numbers, Chapter 12 by Jewish scholars working about the sixth century AD marked the first time in human history that dark brown skin was condemned as something dreadful brought about by an act of revenge in God’s name.
Shrouded in time, history, and hypocrisy “The Curse of Ham” was the basis for 200 years of slavery in the south, and another 100 years of Jim Crow throughout America. It is the religious foundation for racism in the modern world.
On November 4, 2008, America elected Barack Obama, the first black president.
That same day California voters by a margin of 50.4 (1,317,125) percent to 49.6 (1,296,319) percent passed Proposition 8 to amend the state Constitution to ban same-sex marriages.
CNN first reported their exit poll revealed that 70 percent of African Americans voted in favor of Proposition 8.
The Associated Press picked up the story, and then the Los Angeles Times seemingly confirmed it by reporting, “Seven in 10 black voters backed a successful ballot measure to overturn the California Supreme Court’s May decision allowing same-sex marriage, according to exit polls for the Associated Press.”
The much read gay sex advisor, Dan Savage turn pop sociologist repeated the message on Slog.
In his blog The Daily Dish, Andrew Sullivan, of the Atlantic Monthly using extrapolated exit poll data suggested that the added black and Latino voters that resulted from Barack Obama being on the ballet provided the necessary votes to pass the measure.
Then all hell broke loose.
The next day white gays from all over the country blamed blacks for defeating Proposition 8.
Shanikka, a blogger on DailyKOS explained why the “Blame the Blacks” was an uninformed assumption, and a day later found 1,800 “racist scapegoating” comments in response. She spent two days reading their “racist vitriol” rage.
At the November 6th marriage equality rally in Los Angeles outside the Temple of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Westwood, California, one black gay man named Geoffrey was reportedly called a nigger twice that night by white gay protesters.
“It was like being at a Klan rally, except the Klansmen were wearing Abercrombie polos and Birkenstocks”, he said. “You nigger”, one man shouted at me. “If your people want to call me a faggot, I will call you a nigger.”
On the very next block near the Temple someone shouted nigger at Geoffrey again.
While still walking with his gay Korean friend another white gay man shouted at them that “after last night the niggers better not come to West Hollywood if they knew what was best for them.”
On Pam’s House Blend, Pam, an African American lesbian reported that two black gay men carrying “No On Prop 8” signs were also subjected to racial abuse.
“Three white older men accosted my friend and shouted, “Black people did this! I hope you people are happy!” one of the men explained, while a young white lesbian couple with mohawks and Obama buttons joined the shouting, and lamented they were “very disappointed with black people”, and “how could we” after the Obama victory.
White gay rights leaders just assumed that blacks would see their right to be married as the same as, and equal to the black Civil Rights Movement, so the black vote was thought to be in the bag.
Never mind that the Mormon Church poured more than $16 million dollars into passing the measure, or that according to the Colorado Independent.com, Focus on the Family pumped $539,000 in cash and another $83,000 worth of non-monetary support into the measure, or that Elsa Prince, an auto parts heiress, and longtime fonder of conservative social causes, who sits on the Focus on the Family board, contributed another $450,000 to pass Proposition 8.
Never mind the measure was supported by the Catholic Church, the Knights of Columbus, the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America, a group of Evangelical Christians headed by Jim Garlow and Miles McPherson, the very conservative American Family Association, the National Organization for Marriage, and California’s largest ministry, Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church.
Never mind that 65 percent of Catholics, 64 percent of people over 65, 53 percent of Latinos, 49 percent of whites, and 49 percent of Asians, supported the measure, not to mention that blacks make up only 6.7 percent of the state’s population making virtually impossible for blacks to pass the measure by themselves, even if they all voted for it, or that the organizational efforts to reject the measure was absolutely dismal in comparison the efforts to pass it.
Jeremy Pittman, the national deputy field director for the Human Right Campaign (HRC), the largest gay rights group in the country said his organization raised $2 million dollars from donors and donated $237,409 in staff time to defeat Proposition 8.
Depressed, Andrew Sullivan noted that the Mormon Church’s “hefty proportion of the $16 million the Prop 8 campaign had raised – compared to the $10 million for No”…HRC was, once again, not exactly on the ball in the biggest civil rights struggle in the history of the gay movement.”
There was very little outreach to black communities, few black faces in that outreach, and no reason given why blacks should unconditionally vote against the measure other than they just should, because blacks should know what discrimination is like.
Accusing black people of being against civil rights for gays is like blaming a rape victim for not being immediately sensitive to other rape victims.
The rape victim is always consumed in her own rape. Not until later, after a period of leveled emotions and education does she become concerned about the victimization of others, particularly when her rapists are now the rape victims she is supposed to be concerned about.
White gays could never be called pro-black any more than Blacks could be called pro-gay. Each group has similar experiences, but not the same experiences, and neither, but on rare occasions have ever supported, or even very much liked the other.
Color, sexuality, socio-economic circumstances, and belief in the Old Testament separate gays from blacks.
Blacks have always resented the gay ability to “hide” their sexuality when needed. It reminds them of “light-skinned” blacks, who pretended to be white to gain preference, and not be treated poorly like other black people. This is the reason why blacks never equated the struggle of gays to be accepted to their own Civil Right Movement.
Like many people, blacks believe gays are made, and not born. They think being gay is a “lifestyle choice”, like becoming a swinger. To them, when one chooses an alternative lifestyle, you are not asking for equal rights or civil rights, but preferential treatment.
Comparatively, blacks consider their economic problems to be a matter of survival – far more pressing to their lives than the right of gays to have the state recognize their assertion to get married, especially when many gays have either ignored the economic problems of blacks, or participated in keeping them in their lower class status.
It is like asking the rape victim to care about you being raped by someone else, after you raped her.
Then there is blacks’ belief in the Old Testament. Mired in the indoctrination of various Christian Churches for almost three centuries, a disproportionate number of blacks remain slaves, not to the loving, inclusive teachings of Jesus Christ, but to the misinterpreted musings, ravings, and tribal control issues of insecure men, who lived over 2,000 years ago.
As a result, much of the black culture is homophobic. In this case, people who are struggling to survive do cling to their religion to help them feel worthy and better about themselves. They may be poor or lower middle class, but they see themselves as closer to God – the truth and the light – unaware they have been played by teachings designed by authority figures to prevent them from leaving the fold, moving forward, and making their own decisions.
Clearly, blacks like all Christian, Jewish, and Moslem fundamentalist need to be re-educated. They are the Luddites throwing their boots into the machinery in an effort to stop progress and modernity.
Aunt Charlotte was a slave kidnapped from another country, stripped of all her culture, removed from all her very different, more open sexual traditions, forced to please two hypocrites, who were too twisted to take responsibility for their own actions.
The biblical “Curse of Ham” was used to legitimize her mistreatment. It was an excuse as the failure of Proposition 8 was an excuse for white gays to vent their ignorance, anger, and latent racism against black voters, who did not meet their expectations.
It is now ridiculous to argue who is the greater victim, blacks or gays. It is time to move forward.
President elect Obama won the election not by being divisive, blaming one group or another, but by giving contrition without penance.
Granted, Proposition 8 should be overturned by the courts, since a majority should never have the right to remove the rights already granted to a minority by the courts, but we still need each other, if not now, we will in the future.
You cannot gain the trust and cooperation of black people by demonizing them, and calling them niggers. This is not a good Idea. Nothing is less productive.
We need the unified strength of all people of goodwill to fight against politicians like Newt Gingrich, who firmly believes a “gay and secular fascism” is about to take over the country. He is not alone in that belief.
White gays need to bring more black gays and bisexuals into leadership roles in the gay community. Diversity is good. It adds to our creativity, intelligence and uniqueness. We learn from it. Black gays live both realities. They are the bridge between the gay and black communities.
Black gays and bisexuals need to both accept these roles, and challenge the homophobic teachings and attitudes in the black community. Stop going to a homophobic church. Boycott it. Expose it for what it is, and find other ways to communicate with church members on a personal level. Become important to others in your community by helping people improve their lives.
When you talk with other black people about homosexuality or bisexuality regarding the Old Testament know your facts. Simple things like: The Old Testament does not allow people to eat a ham and cheese omelet, to say nothing of barbeque ribs. It justifies slavery, sexual abuse, and racism. It demands that women while on their period cannot lay next to their husbands in the same bed.
If your children curse at you, you are supposed to kill them.
Women are not allowed to wear mixed fabrics like cotton and linen together, or even nylon panties with a mixed blend bra under a warm woolen dress, under a cashmere coat. Men cannot wear a cotton shirt, a silk tie, with a wool suit, cashmere socks, and leather shoes.
Note how absurd, outrageous, and contradictory the Old Testament is when it states for example that if a man sleeps with a pig, after the sex the man must kill the pig, or that it says nothing about women having sex with each other, but oral sex is a sin punishable by death, while men having sex with other men is called an “abomination”, yet the act only carries a very slight punishment, when the punishment is not ignored completely.
The gay movement should also be known to stand for racial justice. Talk about immigration and affirmative action, so all people, particularly gay people of color understand and feel comfortable belonging to a movement that also supports their other important concerns.
Gay people of color need to be more forceful in explaining to white gays why they have issues that are just as important to them as being gay or gay marriage. People will not understand you, or support you, unless they know you, and understand what is important to you. You must step forward and open your mouth. Even talk to your enemies. Think about contrition without penance. It worked for Obama.
It also worked for Aunt Charlotte. She did not die a slave. Mrs. Thomas died of tuberculosis. Afterwards, Charlotte continued to take care of Mr. Thomas, and he fell in love with her. On his death bed he left his plantation to her. She freed the other slaves, and to this day the property belongs to her family in Alabama.
She died a free woman at 103 years old as Charlotte Thomas surrounded by her grand children, their spouses, and their children, and the rest of the extended Thomas family.
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Why does it matter “whether the gay rights movements is the same as the 1960s Civil Rights Movement for Blacks”? What white gay people are talking about is a civil rights movement, not the Civil Rights Movement…we get it there is a difference. However, white people and most people who voted no on Prop 8 are disgusted that a group of people who have been so vehemently discriminated against would so willingly vote to add a discrimination clause into the constitution…a simple extrapolation should easily point to the fact that with enough money and enough backing black rights could be up to a popular vote.
I don’t blame anyone one group for passing prop 8, white, black, hispanic, asian, etc californians combined made this pass.
African Americans (overwhelmingly spiritual) overwhelmingly denounce homosexuality. No town hall meeting is going to change that. I balk at the notion that any disdain African Americans have towards this proposition is somehow disproportionate or abnormally significant, as if it’s unique to the psyche’s of African Americans to shun homosexual behavior! That’s a universal philosophy! UNIVERSALLY, homosexuality is considered a deviant behavior, and this doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with God or any religion.
Black people are NOT obligated to allow gays the opportunity to ride on the backs of the civil rights movement to propel their agenda. Why can’t they find a different way to “market” it?
It really irritates me that the gay population goes on now as if the majority of people on this planet are gay, and as a consequence are obligated to accept their behavior unchallenged on any level!
Gays didn’t get their way with prop 8 and feel they can “manhandle & muscle” the Black political community & clergy at large until they do – while dangling the civil rights movement over it’s heads? Excuse me, but the civil rights movement was about human rights – not behavioral rights, and the audacity to equate the two is offensive. The backlash against gay marriage by many blacks is not about suppressing or discriminating against another person’s civil rights, it is about discouraging or disassociating itself from what most consider deviant sexual behavior – prevalent or not. It is my opinion that there is no need to have a “town hall” meeting for us to discuss something so fundamentally obvious.
…i have been reading the many sides to this issue since all hell broke loose, but percy58 you went ALL the way there…that blog from blindpassionlifestyle.com articulated so much of my own thoughts in this area moreso than ANYTHING i have come across to date…THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU for putting it out there…!
Homosexuality is NOT a behavior.
Homosexuality is NOT shared universally as a deviant behavior.
Gays are NOT asking or riding on the backs of any civil rights movement. That’s your projection.
Black folks aren’t the only people in history who are fighting for their civil rights- get over it!
Be irritated. NOT one Gay person goes on about the majority of people being Gay.
Gay folks and other citizens have every right to hold all individuals and groups responsible for voting in favor of discriminating and oppressing Gay and Lesbian citizens their Constitutional right to marry.
Be offended.
Be ignorant.
There will ALWAYS be hostile individuals like yourself. No amount of decency and common sense that will cure what’s ailing folks like you.
Jasmyne,
Thank you for telling it how it is yet again. Since discussing this issue, my blog has been hit with a number of people on both sides of the argument and it’s clear a lot of people simply don’t get it.
However I will say that it is a relief to see that there are a number of progressive white gays out there who are disgusted with the ineffective leadership and the rampant bigotry of the conservative gays running the community. While they seem to be in the minority, I at least applaud them for speaking out.
I was really hurt that Prop 8 got passed and people lost their rights that were given to them then taken away. I am a black gay man and it disturbed me that some white gays used racial slurs against black gay men and women who had nothing to do with the passing of Prop 8! I don’t think people realized that blacks weren’t the only one to vote on this proposition and then we get blamed and scapegoated for the failure of the proposition. I do know one thing that the black and white gays here in my city of Atlanta really don’t talk or even relate to each other. Who’s fault is it. All of our faults. I really don’t think that the white gays understand that our issues are different and that when they lose so do we. What they don’t realize is that they are already at a advantage just because they are white. No I don’t think that can always be an excuse but it is part of the problem. YEs we can do anything it was proven on Nov.4, but when we don’t talk to each other and make assumptions and just lash out in anger things like this happens. I love being who I am and wouldn’t change one thing about me, but I am guilty of not opening myself up to know more about my white gay and straight brothers and sisters. I can admit I have alot of grower and learning I need to acquire and from this day on I am open to listen and grow.
Isn’t it utterly amazing how we live in a majority white country, in which gay marriage is only valid in what… 2 states, yet white gays continue to frame homophobia as if it’s exclusively a black problem? Is there any wonder why they lose time and time again? I mean really, one would think white homophobia would be a bit more of a concern. You think it may have something to do with the fact that they just can’t bare the thought of having some “filthy nigger” looking down upon them? Or so they say.
As you’ve noticed black homophobia only becomes a problem when it affects them, any other time they simply ignore the “niggers”, just try to forget they exist really, well until they need a vote, or if the democratic process doesn’t go their way. The one good thing they came from this, is that white gay racism has been exposed for what it is. Jasmyne has the right idea, we need have this family discussion. Black gays need to stand up and be heard, speak out about the rights that we seek within our community.
We need to strengthen our own organizations and build coalitions within our own community as well as with other organizations the serve gay POC. We can’t set back and allow white gays to be our voice and represent us, when in reality they view us as largely irrelevant and undesirable. Look at what they’ve been doing the past 2 weeks, calling black people every kind of nigger you can think of,roughing up old ladies, vandalizing and disrupting church services, forming some sort of blacklist, sending mysterious substances by mail to churches etc… I dont’ want to be assoicated with that.
And these racist attacks directed toward the black community on behalf of gay whites has set the gay movement back years within our community( and isn’t help their cause amongst the general populaton either), and who do you think is going to be most affected by it? Us. We have no other choice but to distance ourselves for the white gay movement at this point, and establish our own movement which reflects our unique postion as both gay and persons of color.
Being gay is a moral and human right. Most gay’s can hide who they really are, but try and be a black person and lie about it. Please do not compare it to the civil rights movement. And to be called a niggar because you think a race of people are responsible for the passage of prop. 8, you are more useless than I thought.
Jan
Jan,
It’s offensive for you to call the African American civil rights movement “the civil rights movement.” The African American civil rights movement is only one of several civil rights movements. African Americans are not gate keepers for civil rights, and they do themselves no favors by alienating every other minority group in the country from Asians to Jews to gays and women.
I want to say three things:
1) I think, ultimately, Ms. Cannick, your heart is in the right place, but I think your arguments can use a little less invective, and they could be a little more articulate than they are. I don’t think it’s a problem of racially presumptuous white people wanting to tell black people how they should act, as much as it a presumptuousness and political ineptitude coming from the rich, white people who run the PACs (so it’s a class issue, not race, to me, anyways). I mean, it’s up to 30 states, now — when are they going to get it into their heads that they need to change what they’re doing? Are they waiting for the Federal Marriage Amendment to pass? Maybe they’ll get it, then.
2) I think I would’ve cried after all that entire broadcast. It’s amazing how ignorant people are. I mean, I’d expect that in Georgia, where I am; but California? If that broadcast tells me anything, it’s that people in this country are sorely under-educated and duped, and they have been for years and years…
3) I think that last lesbian was a fake. The hell does she mean that “she doesn’t need a piece of paper,” and that it’s about morals? She sounds like a plant to me.
In any case, I’m black, too; I’m 24 years old; but my family’s Nigerian: my devout Seventh-Day Adventist mom, my atheist brothers and I, evil atheist as well
, voted against the gay marriage ban (the gay -everything to do with partnership- ban, it should be called — even civil unions are banned, and probably, partnerships, too) back in 2004, and it passed here over 70%, if I remember correctly. At least in California, it was as close as it was. I wish I could say that maybe the gay marriage side should drop it for the time being, but I think that’s what the religious groups are counting on — even if there was no push from the supporters’ side, the Christians would still push for bans, anyway.
I think the only hope for us all is when the boomers die off. Sorry for the ageist comment, but after that broadcast, as well as eight years of Bush, as well as their continued denial of all other INCREDIBLY obvious things, like climate change? It’s obvious the Boomers are trying to kill us.
That’s all I have to say. Good luck to you.